Another full inbox here at The Fizz as we wrap up an incredibly busy June, after a crazy football recruiting month and a potential addition to the basketball squad. Pigskin will be the main course, but we start with an appetizer of hoops.
@Adamstock1983: @OrangeFizz Any word on Brian Oliver coming to Syracuse? Where else is he considering?
There hasn‚Äôt been much news since Kanell talked to Oliver‚Äôs mom last week (more on their discussion in this week‚Äôs FizzCast), but we do know SU is in the race. Essentially it’s going be a school closer to home so Oliver can be with his dad. SU certainly fits from a playing time standpoint (he’ll play the wing position and be outside on offense). But is it too far from his Delaware home (plus does he like the coaching staff? Campus? etc.).
Plavin compiled a list of other potential future Orange which of course resulted in plenty of feedback in the Fizz Inbox. (Note: this is also reason #1,478 why it should still be Orangeman. We are one letter away of having future Oranges. Like baby fruit.).
“Enough!!! We just had about 6 months of solid CUSE BB news and stuff. I‚Äôm a big fan of CUSE BB but please put it on the back burner for a while. -Terry”
Ah, the ever cheerful Terry weighs in. Panties. Wad. Fix them. In the middle of a sea of football recruiting stories, exactly one basketball story might cause Terry’s head to explode and his decapitated body hurtling through orbit. And this intense reaction to hoops is a full three months after the season ended. We should all be frightened.
“Coleman is the only big time recruit I could see picking Syracuse this year. From what I hear Ledo is really high on UK which isn‚Äôt a surprise considering the way Cal utilizes scoring guards within his Dribble-Drive system. If Drummond doesn‚Äôt end up going pro then I think he will most likely stay in state with UConn, and think Amile Jefferson will be the one to roundout Nova‚Äôs dynamite class. -Iain”
“I think theres really a good chance of landing coleman and jefferson. I know the coaching staff is really big on jefferson and with all the philly talent at SU theres a good chance. I think if coleman commits there would be a better chance of getting ledo since they have played very well together up in albany. with those three alone that would be by far the best class in the country. -kevin”
The Fizz has been all over Coleman for a while now and he would be an enormous get for SU (or anyone else). Jefferson’s¬†style fits right into what the Orange do offensively. As far as Ledo goes, Calipari always seems to get what he wants (especially at the guard spot) so it‚Äôs going to be a tough get. UK is also after Coleman hard, so beating the Wildcats twice would be quite the feat.
Cal has the ability to adjust UK’s offense to whoever his point guard is, whether it be a slasher like John Wall (where he ran the dribble drive) or the better shooting and uber intelligent Brandon Knight (where Kentucky ran far more sets).
Football dominated the headlines this month, and SU picked up another handful of verbals throughout the week. This included go-getter WR Ben Lewis (Maryland Рalso the home state of spider-hating wideout Alec Lemon), OL Jason Emerich (Pennsylvania) and RB DeVante McFarland (Long Island, NY).
The commitments created quite the buzz on our Twitter page:
@KevMonstah: @OrangeFizz DA: 3 Stars, schools interested include most Big 10 ones, he’s a great pick up. 6’5″, 272, an HS senior to be. Sold!
@Shue_Box@OrangeFizz Getting recruits being targeted by Cincinnati is better than getting recruits being targeted by Akron…
Very true Shue, very true.
However, a debate began on D.A.’s article regarding McFarland and whether Orange fans should really be excited about another 2-3 star guy. And here. We. Go!
“HCDM recruiting has not been up to his walking on water status most CUSE fans see of him. In his 2 1/2 years of recruiting no real 4 star talent here. I hate to say it but GROB got 4 star talent here. HCDM is a control freak from what I understand. Great talented kids have ego‚Äôs and we see what happens when HCDM does not agree with a player-they’re gone. -Terry”
“Stop this madness now. Stop the criticism of Marrone‚Äôs recruiting. Stop these type of articles now. As true Cuse fans, we need to be happy when any recruits commits to the Cuse and we certainly are not above a 3 star commitment. Marrone proved with his first class that he knows how to recruit period end of story. Look at the number of quality players from that first class. -Dr. Bill”
Woah! Doc! Take a deep breath!!! Happy with any recruits?! So if I bribe The Dougie with a bologna sandwich for a walk-on slot we should be excited? I do agree SU is not “above” any 3-star recruit and Marrone seems to be getting the most out of its talent (meaning the players were probably better than their “star” ratings), but the truth probably lies somewhere in the middle.
“Yes he should get fans excited. SU‚Äôs recruiting is at a higher level now than it was. Previously recruiting against schools like UNH for talent, now recruiting against teams like FSU, Penn State, and UND. That‚Äôs how you go from 1-11/2-10 to 8-5. -KevMonstah”
We can always rely on the Monstah to bring a bit of clarity.
“Yeah enough of these articles ‚Äúdownplaying‚Äù or taking the role of a ‚Äúdevil‚Äôs advocate‚Äù Fizz. The Star system is a flawed evaluation, for kids who go to these showcases and camps to get rated. Maybe Washington and MacFarlane are not 4-5 star recruits, but they are what ‚ÄòCuse can get right now, the coaching staff sees talent, and these 2 kids (along with Emerich) seem to be late bloomers for recruitment. They are also very well spoken of. IN2-3 years we‚Äôll see how well Marrone did with these recruits. -OrangeCrush22”
I think this is a completely fair point. The star services can vary greatly. The mysterious disappearing recruit Defarrel Davis was 4-stars by one service and only 2-stars for another. Plus, his stats were underwhelming so tabbing him a 4-star was always strange. It’s always hard to evaluate a class before they play a game. For instance:
“Delone Carter- ***
Ryan Bartholomew-***
Derrell Smith- **
Mike Williams- **
Arthur Jones- **
Doug Hogue-***
Chandler Jones-**
Shamarko Thomas- **
these are just some of the two and 3 star recruits sryacuse has signed who have gone on to be very good players for this team -Buck Nasty”
There’s a lot of NFL talent on that list and not a whole lot of stars. Marrone and his staff have been extraordinary at picking the right 2 and 3-star guys and being able to maximize their abilities, but that is still missing D.A.’s point:
“Have to say I‚Äôm a little disappointed there‚Äôs this little critical thought being invested in SU football anymore. When I was in school 97-01 every recruiting class was analyzed meticulously and Coach P was under the gun to deliver 4-star kids. Now it‚Äôs almost sacrilege to question Marrone in any way. I guess we have turned into a fan base of pom pom wavers. No one wants to hear that we are beating Akron and Temple and Vandy to kids. Just that everything is great. Strange culture shift. -DA”
How many highly competitive recruiting battles (against Big 10, SEC, ACC squads) has SU won under Marrone? Not many. That‚Äôs why we at The Fizz have focused lots of attention on the Kellys, Perkins, and Ishaqs of the world. They are the truest indicators of whether the program is reaching the next level of athlete. There’s no guarantee that even a 5-star recruit pans out. But beating MAC and Sun Belt schools is par for the course. No one should be disappointed in what Marrone is getting, but we have to also realize those are the kids SU has always picked up.
“I think it‚Äôs partly because of how far down GRob dragged us and partly because, since the ACC raid, the Big East sort of feels like a football mid-major. When we can‚Äôt even get a blue chipper like Ishaq ‚Äì whose parents are both alums ‚Äì it just underscores how we‚Äôll almost never beat out the big boys for a big fish. -Boston Jay”
“DA is right the truth is everyone is agitated when Dougie gets questioned. I think the reason is that coming off of the Robinson era fans remember how horrible it was so anything postive Marrone does we consider Magic. -MC”
Maximizing the potential of lesser-rated players is great is clearly working well for The Dougie and company. SU can be very successful in the Big East that way and is the first steps in building the program back up. But that’s not the goal of a program that historically was been successful on a national level.
In order to get back to the prominence Syracuse enjoyed as recently as the McNabb Era, you’re going to have to land a few ‚Äúbig fish.‚Äù South Carolina grabbed Marcus Lattimore at the RB spot and he was able to carry them to the SEC championship game. Impact players who can come in and deliver immediately are program changers and would be an enormous step forward for Orange football. No one should criticize Marrone for what he‚Äôs accomplishing. Instead, we’re just analyzing whether we’re seeing the next step in the evolution.
Great Fizz Feedback by you the readers this week, please continue to leave comments under all our posts and @reply us on Twitter (@OrangeFizz) to get your thoughts heard and questions answered. Stay tuned for a fresh FizzCast with much more on all of this and a “Fizz Fresh Take” on criminal trouble among college athletes with ESPN’s Steve Bunin (SU ‘96). Football season’s less than two months away and thank goodness no lockout can get in the way.
Posted: Craig Hoffman
11 responses to “Fizz Feedback: Are Our Expectations Too Low As Syracuse Football Fans?”
What Marrone does well is get leader types (minus Ashton Broyld) who have all the intangibles and excellent qualites that make themselves model citizens in the world of sports. A guy like Chandler Jones was rated with only 2 stars, but look at what he has become. Meanwhile, Cuse fans want 4 and 5 star types, but they don’t always translate to being great football players. Look at Terrelle Pryor. He was supposed to be a spectacular star for Ohio State, rated at 5 stars on these recruiting sites. Obviously he has not been a beneficial player in their program after a couple years of up and down play, and now his poor decision making has left a black eye on the Ohio State program for years to come. Keep up the good work Coach, and know that you have one SU fan happy with what you’ve done for this program.
Bill (Not a Dr)
Bill –
So you don’t want 5 Star guys because one of them recently screwed a program? For every Terrelle Pryor and Reggie Bush, there’s another Tim Tebow or Mark Ingram. No to mention Pryor’s “up and down play” led his team to a Rose Bowl win last year. You’re point only has validity in a Terrelle Pryor vacuum of doom and gloom. If you get a 4 or 5 star guy who is also a high character guy (see Tebow, Ingram, Myron Rolle, etc) then it elevates you to another level. To avoid all of them because there are a few bad apples is ridiculous. Has everyone already forgotten 3-star Brice Hawkes? He wasn’t a blue chipper and found himself in trouble. Not a perfect plan.
Hoffman
Have you ever seen an exceptionally beautiful woman, a woman, who even a blind man would have to admit is beautiful. Well 5 star recruits are like that. Like the beautiful woman, everyone wants them, but they can be very selective about whom they say yes to.
WE(SU fans and coaches) can lust after all the 5 star recruits that we want to, but realize that they have too many suitors and we will continue to be disappointed if we put all of our efforts there. So if we want to go on some dates at all, now we have two choices:
1. We can make some personal upgrades to become more attractive to beautiful women: get better looking, get a better personality, or get a bunch of cash $$$$$$$$$$$
2. We can adjust our sights, and stop targeting the extremely stunning and visually aesthetic women, and start going after the girls with other qualities and characteristics who value what we have to offer.
Now if you opt for choice number two, does that mean you are setting your expectations too low or does it mean you are confident in what you bring to the table and value those who appreciate that ?
Recruiting can be just as complicated as dating, everyone wants the homecoming queen, but the real gem of the class turns out to be the yearbook editor, who knew?
Though McNabb was approached by recruiters from numerous colleges, only two schools—Syracuse University and the University of Nebraska—offered him scholarships to play as quarterback.[4]
This is from Wikpedia..I checked several websites and they all stated that McNabb was not being recruited to play quarterback by anyone other than Nebraska and SU. Regardless of what his STAR rating was, almost no one wanted him as a QB. I just wonder what everyone was saying about McNabb when he was being recruited. It’s easy to look back and see what a great recruit he was but what was everyone saying before he got here? We were taking a guy that almost no one wanted as a QB. My point is, let’s give these recruits a chance to prove themselves and not get all hung up over some arbitrary ratings game. Who knows, there might be another star in this group that just committed.
Lefty,
That is a great point. The Fizz seems to think that unless we get a 5 or 4 star recruit, we are not making progress with recruiting and we should not be excited about the commit. Aside from the 5 star prospect, the difference between the 4, 3 and 2 star prospect is very subjective and varies from service to service. What matters most in recruiting is the value that the coaching staff puts on the player. Right now we appear to be missing on some of the top players on our board, but we are still getting some players that the staff believes in.
An interesting observation: If you look on the scout recruiting site and look at the prospects being recruited by each Big East School and how they rate each prospect, what you will see is that some schools have offered some players with 4 or 5 stars while that same player is not being recruited by other big East Schools.
Why is that? maybe the player doesn’t fit the scheme or the school is placing a higher value on another player. Bottom line, it is the coaching staff that determines the value of each recruit for his program and not the scouting service grade. Go Cuse.
Well Bill go back over the last 10 seasons and look at the teams that have been to the NC/BCS games u’d be hard pressed to find many teams that didnt have top 15 recruiting classes. Boise, TCU,Utah and thats about it. Its ok to hope that some of these low star guys will turn out to be gems but to build a top notch team u need some studs mixed in.
Hoffman OSU won the sugar bowl last yr. TCU won the rose.
Carlton,
I get your point. I never said I don’t want to the the Cuse sign top rated players(5 star, 4 star players). Of course I love to have a roster full of those kids, if we offer them. The point I have been trying to make incessantly is that right now, Syracuse football is not at the point that it is attractive to the 5 star and 4 star players. The reasons for this should be obvious and have been discussed. It doesn’t mean that we should stop trying to recruit them. We as fans have to recognize this as fact for now. Once we improve in a few areas, we will become attractive again.
Until we reach that point, I don’t think it is fair to criticize the current staff, their efforts, or the players that they are bringing in as long as we are making progress and improving on the field because we are.
I would like to see articles that address key issues that I am interested in like the skinny on some of the commits from opposing coaches, local reporters ETc, what is role is Floyd Little playing or plans to play in our recruiting efforts, what are high school coaches saying about the Cuse on the recruiting trail compared to the past, give me some real recruiting insights.
The theme of the recent fizz articles concerning fan disappointment every time some “big fish” 17 ‚àí 18 year old kid who has never played a down in college tells us no, has been explored and discussed too much already and the focus needs to shift.
History has a way of playing tricks the minds of people who want
to tell a certain story. I have been a Cuse fan since the 1970’s.
I remember when we were great , good, and not so good. Before the recruiting services came into play, when coaches told us a kid was a good recruit, we believed it until we saw the kid play.
I would like to see some hard statistics going back to the beginning of the star system and see what some of our recruits were rated and how our teams performed. I would bet that the results would surprise most of us. Who was a 5 star recruit for us…. I don’t remember many and the ones I do remember like the 6-4 receiver out of NJ who played in the 90’s for us , we waited 4 years for this kid to live up to his stars and he never came close. Hey Fizz, do some research and get back to us.
Now that would be a story worth reading.
Yes I agree its awesome to have 5 star guys- I guess you just hear more of the ones turned sour. Still, Marrone searches for the low risk guys who may not seem as talented, and it seems to be working. What I said does not mean I don’t want Jarron Jones, I mean that it is not essential to get 5 star guys to be a successful football team, albeit it is helpful. Not all guys are all they’re supposed to be, look at basketball. Fab Melo has been disappointing for a 5 star guy, his play has been hot and cold and he may have some character issues. Meanwhile, a guy like Hakim Warrick was lightly regarded out of high school, but is now a decent NBA player. And I’m not saying it’s better to laod up on 2 and 3 star guys as opposed to 4 and 5 star guys, but it’s better for Marrone to find 3 star guys who fit than 5 star guys who won’t. And I liked Dr Bill’s comparison of recruiting to dating- you have to find what is the best match for you to be successful. And Fizz casters- I’m not trying to be another Terry.
All great points guys and keep the debate going.
Carlton – good catch. Pryor/OSU won the 2010 Rose Bowl (not 2011…had the picture of Pryor with the Rose in his mouth in my head) and I’m used to the Big 10 team being in the Rose Bowl as it is. Forgot it got switched around this year.
Dr. Bill – That’s an intense, long-term project that would require an insane amount of time. I can see if any of our writers have the time, if not it might have to wait until the winter but we’ll definitely see what we can do.
Bill – Much more on “recruits gone sour” in this week’s Fizzcast with ESPN’s Steve Bunin. And thank goodness…one Terry is enough for all of us.
On the brightside, the star system is much more inaccurate in football than basketball (and it’s hardly perfect in hoops either) so that gives us hope that Doug and his staff can keep finding more of the underrated 2 and 3 star players like Delone, Arthur etc.
The 1 or 2 big fish a year will come at some point, though it might take more consistent winning and/or a facility upgrade to precede that.
In the midst of this NBA Lockout several NBA and NFL athletes have teamed up to put together this funny video: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=51rdAN0Y2xI